Bernard Kelly

John, I hadn't thought of that. I think the sails were glued in after the masts were erected. If you look close the jobs are glued on straight but there's a wide gap between the edge of the jib and the line. Glued outside the bottle I think the gap would be smaller. Also there's a big drop of glue on the lower jibs. Must have dripped when gluing in the last one.
As far as art goes. I agree we should be careful with our critiques on this forum. We all build for different reasons and in different ways. I don't want any one to be afraid of posting a ship in bottle because it doesn't fit into a certain mold or criteria. We need to remember to be respectful. Myself included.

I've also used fly tying silk, and the finest I've found is UNI Thread 8/0.  I've heard of finer ones, but the 12/0 sold by Orvis was actually no finer than the 8/0.  I still use super glue, and with practice and by using only fresh glue I have been able to keep the stiffness down.  I will certainly try Dave suggestion with acrylic varnish.   Here are the ratlines on the shrouds of an unidentified merchant ship in a 5 liter bottle. The main thing that has helped is the practice of trying it to get a better feel for the job.
 

The frame method is one of the best methods I've tried.  I highly suggest it.  The only thing I can add is pick up a pair of these style clippers.  They run about $8 at the grocery store.  I like them better because you can see what your clipping from a comfortable angle.  Last thing you want to do is accidentally cut a stay line.  Regular nail clippers are more curved which makes it harder to see.    
 

Real ratlines were tied to the shrouds with clove hitches except at the ends which had eye splices that were seized to the shrouds. They were spaced at about 15 inches / 38 cm and were aligned parallel to the ship's waterline. Clearly too complicated and fiddly to duplicate the tying - especially the eye splices and seizing - so I just glue them as you suspect. I use lightly diluted artist's acrylic matte varnish, about 2 to 3 parts with 1 part water, to glue them. Being acrylic it remains somewhat flexible, unlike ca, and diluting the varnish allows it to wick into the fibers. I always use my finest fly tie thread no matter what scale the ship is because the ratlines will be over scale unless the model is larger than about 1/300 scale.
 

This is a frame I make to pre-space the ratlines and pin it into place to align the ratlines parallel to the waterline.
Then I use a small pointed brush to varnish all the intersections and repeat on the opposite side making sure
both sides match. I then cut the frames loose and do the same to the other mast(s). I do the same with the
topmast and topgallant mast ratlines. I trim the ends with nail clippers all at the same time so I can clean
up the cuttings just once instead of two or three times.
 

Completed ratlines.
 
Hope this helps.

Hi Gwyl,
I have tried two ideas. On older and smaller models I tied a rolling hitch along the mast with the hitch line making a seam along the aft side of the mast, where the sail would join it and, to some degree, cover it. More recently, and for larger models, I've lightly hammered copper wire to flatten it a little, wound it around an armature of appropriate diameter and cut the hoops out of the coil with small nail scissors. Here are photos of both ideas, both of models of the fishing schooner Ingomar. I wonder if my "advanced" idea is really much of an improvement. The first model is 25 years old, with a plumber's putty sea, and the larger, 5 liter model is about 10 years ago

Greetings Alan,
 
What I do is wrap the thin brown paper as tightly around the drill bit shank first. I then unwrap it, until there is just one layer over the shank, then start applying cyano glue for a bit, then wrap and repeat until I get the thickness I want. After wrapping and covering the outside with glue, I slide the paper tube off of the drill shank and apply cyano glue to the inside of the tube as far in as I can reach and get reasonable coverage. As I cut off mast hoops, I start to see unraveling of the interior wrap and then repeat the inside gluing job again, and repeat as needed.
 
Hope that helps explain it better.
 
Anchor's A Weigh!
John Fox III
Ladysmith, WI

Nice find Daniel.  I am watching to see where your investigation leads and what you find out.    This certainly is an interesting little SIB. 
 
Gwyl

I think you are correct about a continuous line being used to rig at least the fore mast and jib stays, perhaps in a pattern similar to this.
 

 
Rigged similar to this means that none of those stays are control lines and that the bases of the masts were not fixed to the deck with hinges, leaving one of the two variations of the "divot" method for erecting the masts - with or without a control line from the base of each mast through the deck. There doesn't appear to be obstructions around the mast locations to prevent either variation from being a possibility. I think it's safe to conclude that the builder was influenced by exposure to the work of Michel Bardet who favors the divot method with control lines from the bases of the masts. 
 
The only other lines I see that were control lines are the ones from the aft ends of the booms. There may have been four or eight control lines depending on whether or not the bases of the masts were controlled.
 
The lettering for Sigrid is excellent, but could be home made decals and not hand painted. Sigrid is a female name. Did the builder have a Danish girlfriend (or wife or other female family member) named Sigrid? Was he himself a Dane?
 
The twine and wax seal is more often seen on European SiBs than on American, but it is also a characteristic of the Philippine company that makes the cheap, tourist shop SiBs, however, the workmanship on the schooner is better than those so it does not seem likely that it is a product of that company.
 
Is there anything to be learned from the red bordered swallow-tailed flag with the letter S? It's displayed at the usual location for a company flag. Or does the "S" just a refer to Sigrid?
 
I Googled "four masted schooner" and looked at dozens of different images of them. The masts on all of them were equally spaced and the mast heights above the deck were consistently in the range of about 60% to 75% of the waterline length of the hull. The model has unequally spaced masts and they are less than half the hull length. This suggests that the hull was carved first to a length that appealed to the builder then the masts were cut to a length to fit the bottle (poor planning?). The unequal spacing may reflect difficulty erecting one of them (#2) or just another example of poor planning. These details are somewhat contradictory to the general quality of the rigging and the more sophisticated method of mast erection than hinges. I have no idea what the thread on the forward side of the masts might be.
 
It appears that the bottle markings include the volume (0,7L) and possibly a code for the date of manufacture of the mold (715 - May 1971? or July 15?). The triangle may be the bottle manufacturer's identification mark.  
An interesting thought came to mind. The tentative date for this piece is early 70's - about the same time that Bardet started building SiBs. Now, put that fact with the very likely probability that the masts were erected by his favorite method. What does that suggest to you?

My first criteria for thread is its size at scale followed closely by color. Most sewing thread is .006 inch / 0.15 mm with some special purpose thread at .008 inch / 0.2 mm and .012 inch / 0.3 mm. Fly thread is sized by "oughts" as John mentioned with 16/0 being the finest and 6/0 the largest I've seen. The sizes are only comparable to other sizes by the same manufacturer. There are no real standards for size in thread, at least in the way they're sized for general purpose use. Measuring thread diameter with calipers or a micrometer is difficult because it crushes with either measuring tool. I lay a thread lengthwise on one of the caliper jaws then close the other until I feel a slight resistance and repeat several times until I get several repeated measurements.
 
I greatly prefer Gutermann sewing thread because it looks the most like rope of the brands available in the US and seems to me to be less prone to fuzziness than Coats & Clark. Never use a no-name brand thread, it is guaranteed to be nothing but fuzz.
 

In this photo you will see Coats & Clark black sewing thread for the two topmast stays. You probably notice they are rather fuzzy
compared to the darker tan Gutermann thread in the running rigging. The lighter tan threads are Coats & Clark and I think you
can clearly see the difference between it and the Gutermann. The shrouds and back stays are black Gutermann with 6/0 ratlines.
The deadeye lanyards are fly thread about 10/0. The sails were sewn to their spars with 10/0 fly thread colored with a light tan art
marker. I had to treat the same fly thread with thinned acrylic matte artist's varnish for the reef points in the sails to prevent them
from unraveling. This brings up one downside to fly thread - it's relatively stiff causing loose ends, like these reef ties, to unravel at
the slightest touch. The stiffness and springiness of fly thread can also make tying knots a bit of a challenge at times. Above the
yard, parallel to the black stay, is the jib sail up-haul from 16/0 fly thread which measures about .002 inch / 0.05 mm. For size
comparison, the deadeyes and most of the blocks are .040 inch / 1.0 mm in diameter and the rest are .032 inch / 0.8 mm.
 

The main mast head with a black Coats & Clark stay, a tan Gutermann peak halyard and a fly thread gaff topsail up-haul.
Note the fiddle block, a sister block made for two different size ropes.
 

These four masts for another project at 1/640 scale are rigged with fly thread which will be used throughout. Here's a good
example of the thickness of a coat of paint. The topmast shrouds were rigged with a continuous thread starting at a hole in
the mast below the top, over the edge of the top, through another hole in the topmast, back down over the edge of the top,
through the starting hole and repeated for the two or three pairs of shrouds needed. I painted the futtock shrouds to match
the mast and simulated the turnbuckles (the 20th century equivalent of deadeyes used with wire rope) with a coat of white
paint. Notice how much fatter the painted portions look than the black shrouds. There's also a bit of illusion going on here
with the white.
 

The foremast with some basic running rigging. Here's another example of the illusion. The very pale gray lines are the same
size as the black but they don't look like they are. Also notice that the white spar tips look larger than the spar but they aren't.
 

Bowsprit rigged entirely with fly thread. I replicated the solid steel rod bobstay with a piece of copper wire but didn't allow
for the paint thickness in selecting the wire gauge so now it looks a bit too big..
 

One of the other three masts with the gaff rigged with peak, bridle and throat halyards. You may notice that I used
sistered (double) thread blocks in the bridle halyards at the bridles and eye bolts at the mast, and that the bridle
halyard line passes through an eye bolt and then becomes the throat halyard - kind of a cheat but this reduces the 
control lines needed by one at each mast. The two lines will continue through the boom and hull and out the neck.
 
I've been using Veevus fly thread mostly because it's available in the widest variety of sizes and colors. It doesn't seem to have the draw-backs of the brands John has encountered. Most sizes are three strand except the 16/0 which is two strand. I don't think you can tell it's only two strand - and not twisted very tightly - in the two macro photos where I mentioned using it. I have separated the two strands, as an experiment, and they measure .001 inch / 0.025 mm - finer than human hair but haven't found a need to do that but may need to for the ratlines on the 1/640 scale model. .001 inch line comes to about 5/8 inch / 16 mm at this scale.
 
Dave 

Hi Tom
I soldered the handle of a spoon to a steel rod. The end makes really good waves. You can also smooth out the putty if the waves are a little high. 

Hi Jesse Lee
I think a lot can depend on where the ship will be displayed. I made a ship for a man who placed it on a shaded window ledge. After about 12 years the putty had hardened to such an extent I think it had shrunk. The ship had worked loose and was adrift in the bottle. I was able to re-glue it without any problems as the ship was undamaged. Since then, however, I have always stuck a piece of wood, the shape of the hull, to the bottom of the bottle using a two part epoxy. I then put two wooden pins in the bottom of the hull and they sit in two holes in the wood. This seems to do the trick and I have had no problems with the ships coming loose. I can also put information eg, ships name and location on the underside of the wood which can be seen when the bottle is turned over. 

This is the best photo I have got of this particular ship. 
 
 

Thanks Gwyl. That is worth thinking about. I thought I could easily hide the join down the length of the superstructure because the deck is painted green. It is the front of the bridge that concerns me. Doing it across the width could be a better option. Until I can draw up the plans I will not be too sure. I am trying to get hold of a set of plans from the company that now owns the ship but they have so far only been able to offer me a very basic plan and side elevation of the ship. She is at present being restored in Santa Cruz harbour, Tenerife.

Thanks Gwyl. That is worth thinking about. I thought I could easily hide the join down the length of the superstructure because the deck is painted green. It is the front of the bridge that concerns me. Doing it across the width could be a better option. Until I can draw up the plans I will not be too sure. I am trying to get hold of a set of plans from the company that now owns the ship but they have so far only been able to offer me a very basic plan and side elevation of the ship. She is at present being restored in Santa Cruz harbour, Tenerife.

Hi Tom
I soldered the handle of a spoon to a steel rod. The end makes really good waves. You can also smooth out the putty if the waves are a little high. 

Absent the invention of a wonderful new sea material that not only perfectly simulates water, but also smells faintly like the ocean, i suppose we'll all have to accept some version of "imperfect but workable" in our choice of sea materials, except for those who avoid the whole issue by bottling full hull models.
 
TJ

This is the best photo I have got of this particular ship. 
 
 

This is the best photo I have got of this particular ship. 
 
 

Usually, I try to prepare my sails as near to the end of building as possible to prevent damage to them. Sometimes it's more practical to attach sails to yards, booms and gaffs when working on a mast assembly off the vessel. Staysails are usually near the last to go on before the model goes in the bottle but sometimes this rule gets bent with the lowest staysails between the masts.
 
On small models, I glue them to the spar or thread with thinned pva (about 1 part water to 2 parts pva) but intend to try very lightly thinned artists acrylic matte varnish for this light gluing task. Reason for this is that pva does not glue to cured pva well while the varnish does to itself. By lightly thinned I mean a moist brush dipped into the varnish and worked until I have the right consistency just a little thinner than the varnish alone. I experimented with the varnish as a glue on the rigging knots on a recent build and liked it - it holds as well as thinned pva, it sticks to itself well and is better than ca which dries brittle and doesn't always wick into the fibers. Ca often dries white where it builds up instead of wicking into the fibers and pva can cure milky, while the varnish always dries clear.
 
On larger models, I sew my sails on. My finest fly tie thread is about .002 inch / 0.05 mm in diameter which works out to be about 3/8 inch / 1 mm at 1/200 scale so I limit the sewing of sails to about 1/250 and larger scales to keep my rope close to scale. Poking holes with a needle point tears the paper usually out to the edge so I drill holes (.010 inch / 0.25 mm) in the sails. Drilling the holes allows them to be closer to the edge without tearing. I space the holes at about 1 scale foot / 30 scale cm and use a light gray fly thread that is somewhat translucent and takes on some of the color of the spar, sail or stay behind it which keeps the stitching subtle. I dip the end of the thread in ca to make it into a needle of sorts to pass it through the hole. I use a spiraling stitch around the spar or stay through each hole. In most cases this is only a simulation of the method used for real but is much easier to do and looks good with scale 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch rope on spars. Because the spiral stitch on staysails is least like the real method, I use fine fly thread on them even at 1/100 scale and larger. 
 

Detail of recent project with scale spiral stitch securing the fore topsail to the yard. The sail is also glued with varnish.
 

Detail of the mainsail boom. I also glued the edge of the sail to the boom after it was stitched in place
 

Jib sail with fine gray fly thread. This sail is glued to the stay so I can twist the stay inside the bottle to make the sail look like it's full of wind.
 
These sails were drawn digitally and printed on both sides of high quality, standard weight copy paper (20 pound).
 
Dave

Many thanks Gwyl and Igor.
I have made a few models with mutli piece hulls. Bluenose and America from John Fox´s plans and a couple I have done myself. But I have never used pieces in a vertical plane on the deck of the ship. The vessel I am looking at modeling has a superstructure with bridge wings which slightly overlap the bulwarks on the main deck. If I were to make the superstructure in two pieces I would have a join down the centre of the superstructure. This is the join I would find difficult to disguise.  I may possibly have to make the front of the superstructure as a seperate piece to avoid this join. Hopefully being able to insert it into the bottle in one piece and disguising the join to the superstructure behind it. The alternative would be to make the superstructure as a hollow item and build it inside the bottle. 
I have yet to draw up plans for this ship so I have time to think on it yet. 
Any ideas or advice would be welcome. 

The small joke was done during last weekend ))
 

I stand corrected Alan thank you for that clarification.

The drill press looks awesome.  What ingenuity our members have.  
 
Gwyl

That is a nice looking sander CaptOrion. I didn't think I needed a disk sander until I got one, now I can't see building without one.   
 
Gwyl

I made this miniature sander using an old sewing machine motor, it has a dimmer switch on the other side out of view.